Bible; The Liberation

[minorwork]

In the beginning .........Culmination

Spiritual liberation in this lifetime. Experiential proof of existence independent of the physical body.

Concentration and attitude are the keys. A personal Teacher be very, very nice.

A lot of repenting suggestions biblically point to the necessity of deactivating the mind, providing the now freed Soul an ecstatic experience of itself independent of things physical. Without this experience Soul finds itself at the mercies of the mind's five perversions. Lust, greed, anger, attachment, and vanity.

It is hard for me to plainly see this in the much altered Bible. It is most commonly preached from the pulpit that "Heaven" is a reward for living a God fearing, obedient life. Collect after physical destruction. How much more of a manipulative dead end trap can ever be imagined? Shhhh. See thou tellest no one.

"Seek the Kingdom of God." Now we're talking. Experiencing your self as the creator of ALL means you realize responsibility for your actions. Now you can seize the opportunity to correct them and, oh, incidently, bring the mind into submission, shut it off for a little while and, Voila! Realize existence without the body. The Kingdom of Heaven!

Believe nothing just because a so-called wise person said it. Believe nothing just because a belief is generally held. Believe nothing just because it is said in ancient books. Believe nothing just because it is said to be of divine origin. Believe nothing just because someone else believes it. Believe only what you yourself test and judge to be true. Siddhartha Gautama

I think that Buddha did it right.
Below is Caravaggios's, The Incredulity of Saint Thomas.
My Hero. Maybe Sid's too.

13

[minorwork]

The physical body is made of the physical world. The physical world is the battleground. Hot, cold. Good, bad. Pleasure, pain. Awake, asleep. Alive, dead. The dualities are rampant. Forever warring, the ever unfolding present reveals itself out of conflict. This is the nature of the physical. Some say everything is physical. That our thoughts and feelings, our pleasures and pains, hopes and dreads, all from the characteristics of the physical reality. So?

The fact of a failing, dying body presents the negative half of life from the viewpoint within the body. The exteriorization of that point of view, if for only a little while, is the Liberation itself. Accomplishing this change of consciousness establishes the base on which works of wonder in the physical are established upon. The sense of freedom immense. This must be experienced, but, can cautiously be understood by those until able to accomplish the separation. Some never achieve it. Without experience, faith becomes authority. Faith. Willing to act on belief without proof. Not without problems, however.

I discover, best with the aid of a teacher, the unique to me techniques to accomplish the Liberation. There is the odd part of the Liberation where a liberator grants the freedom from the worlds of illusion. Like I am not alone in the endeavor. He hooks me up. Well, if that's what it takes.

Of course the brain must be able to remember the experience once back.
Look at dreams. That problem can be worked out on an individual basis.
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[one_lost_coin]

hot and cold, being awake and going to sleep and neither pleasure and pain seem hardly to be in conflict with each other. Your statement "A lot of repenting suggestions biblically point to the necessity of deactivating the mind, providing the now freed Soul an ecstatic experience of itself independent of things physical." is not what the churchs teaching is unless i misunderstand you. the the body and the physical unviverse are good. for instance from the catechism states this among a number of other things on this topic
341 The beauty of the universe: the order and harmony of the created world results from the diversity of beings and from the relationships which exist among them. Man discovers them progressively as the laws of nature. They call forth the admiration of scholars. the beauty of creation reflects the infinite beauty of the Creator and ought to inspire the respect and submission of man's intellect and will.
this is a better understanding of what the bible teaches on the creation.
God Himself enters into His creation in the Incarnation and through Jesus Christ has redeemed it.

[minorwork]

I am unfamiliar with Catechism texts. Have read some since your post.

Perhaps "conflict" can be adjusted to "necessary opposites."

I'm not sure what I'm getting into with this post. That hasn't slowed me down yet. Brave, but foolhardy might describe me somewhat. Onward.

51 "It pleased God, in his goodness and wisdom, to reveal himself and to make known the mystery of his will. His will was that men should have access to the Father, through Christ, the Word made flesh, in the Holy Spirit, and thus become sharers in the divine nature."2 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PF.HTM#$13)
52 God, who "dwells in unapproachable light", wants to communicate his own divine life to the men he freely created, in order to adopt them as his sons in his only-begotten Son.3 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PF.HTM#$14) By revealing himself God wishes to make them capable of responding to him, and of knowing him and of loving him far beyond their own natural capacity.
53 The divine plan of Revelation is realized simultaneously "by deeds and words which are intrinsically bound up with each other"4 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PF.HTM#$15) and shed light on each another. It involves a specific divine pedagogy: God communicates himself to man gradually. He prepares him to welcome by stages the supernatural Revelation that is to culminate in the person and mission of the incarnate Word, Jesus Christ.

Just having viewed a small part of the Catechism today I have to say that someone besides myself has "seen" that described as an ".....unapproachable light."

"Unapproachable" Yes. Yes. The Warning. "Seen" when approaching the Godhead from an Old Testament angle. Ultimate vain blaspheme. Definitely not God's plan for revelation.

That oughtta be enough to hang myself. By the way what is DV2, referred to by 4 in 53 above?

[one_lost_coin]

minorwork, a well chosen section in your posts. you seem very thourogh to have found it but i dont understand your closing thoughts in the posts ""Unapproachable" Yes. Yes. The Warning. "Seen" when approaching the Godhead from an Old Testament angle. Ultimate vain blaspheme. Definitely not God's plan for revelation." could you clarify

DV is the abbreviation for Dei Verbum which is the Catholic Churchs teaching on the Word of God. I believe it was part of what is refered to as Vatican II (a Church Counsil). Here is a link to the document http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19651118_dei-verbum_en.html

[minorwork]

Yes. The site was my source for the Catechism references.

Approaching the Absolute in the same manner as the Old Testament prophets has not been barred. To do so verifies the description "unapproachable." Does it burn painful? Yes, of a certainty.

My exclamation was of joy. A confirmation, so to speak.

On the words you desire clarified:
42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God --"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"-- with our human representations.16 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PC.HTM#$Z) Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

Forgive my vain descriptions of experience and understanding.
Writings of my blaspheme glorify nothing. see 2091 and 2092. Maybe later if my conscience allows. So, if you haven't yet viewed this posting, I give the following for a judgement at more levels than I thought possible when wrestling with the keyboard that night.
http://gnawed.com/showpost.php?p=1266&postcount=5

[minorwork]

from one lost coin
Your statement "A lot of repenting suggestions biblically point to the necessity of deactivating the mind, providing the now freed Soul an ecstatic experience of itself independent of things physical." is not what the churchs teaching is unless i misunderstand you.


31 Created in God's image and called to know and love him, the person who seeks God discovers certain ways of coming to know him. These are also called proofs for the existence of God, not in the sense of proofs in the natural sciences, but rather in the sense of "converging and convincing arguments", which allow us to attain certainty about the truth. These "ways" of approaching God from creation have a twofold point of departure: the physical world, and the human person.

35 Man's faculties make him capable of coming to a knowledge of the existence of a personal God. But for man to be able to enter into real intimacy with him, God willed both to reveal himself to man, and to give him the grace of being able to welcome this revelation in faith.(so) the proofs of God's existence, however, can predispose one to faith and help one to see that faith is not opposed to reason.

37 In the historical conditions in which he finds himself, however, man experiences many difficulties in coming to know God by the light of reason alone:
Though human reason is, strictly speaking, truly capable by its own natural power and light of attaining to a true and certain knowledge of the one personal God, who watches over and controls the world by his providence, and of the natural law written in our hearts by the Creator; yet there are many obstacles which prevent reason from the effective and fruitful use of this inborn faculty. For the truths that concern the relations between God and man wholly transcend the visible order of things, and, if they are translated into human action and influence it, they call for self-surrender and abnegation. the human mind, in its turn, is hampered in the attaining of such truths, not only by the impact of the senses and the imagination, but also by disordered appetites which are the consequences of original sin. So it happens that men in such matters easily persuade themselves that what they would not like to be true is false or at least doubtful.13 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PB.HTM#$W)

[one_lost_coin]

minorwork writes: 42 God transcends all creatures. We must therefore continually purify our language of everything in it that is limited, imagebound or imperfect, if we are not to confuse our image of God --"the inexpressible, the incomprehensible, the invisible, the ungraspable"-- with our human representations.16 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PC.HTM#$Z) Our human words always fall short of the mystery of God.

Yes true in a sense, but how do you reconcile that with God using history-for instance the exodus, images-for example the arc, the word as preserved in sacred scripture and ultimately Jesus who is God found in the image of man, entered into time and creation as invaluble means of Gods revelation to us. I am aware of the language of the mystics of who you seem to draw upon but I would not say that we should leave in the sense of abandon the things that God has given us to know Him but to build upon them instead. maybe that you also meant.

[minorwork]

And here is where I'll probably get into trouble.


23 The Catechism emphasizes the exposition of doctrine. It seeks to help deepen understanding of faith. In this way it is oriented towards the maturing of that faith, its putting down roots in personal life, and its shining forth in personal conduct.17 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7.HTM#)
24 By design, this Catechism does not set out to provide the adaptation of doctrinal presentations and catechetical methods required by the differences of culture, age, spiritual maturity, and social and ecclesial condition among all those to whom it is addressed. Such indispensable adaptations are the responsibility of particular catechisms and, even more, of those who instruct the faithful:

Whoever teaches must become "all things to all men" (⇒ (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0839/_PZE.HTM#NTLET.1COR.9.22) I Cor 9:22), to win everyone to Christ. . . Above all, teachers must not imagine that a single kind of soul has been entrusted to them, and that consequently it is lawful to teach and form equally all the faithful in true piety with one and the same method! Let them realize that some are in Christ as newborn babes, others as adolescents, and still others as adults in full command of their powers.... Those who are called to the ministry of preaching must suit their words to the maturity and understanding of their hearers, as they hand on the teaching of the mysteries of faith and the rules of moral conduct.18 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7.HTM#)
Above all - Charity
25 To conclude this Prologue, it is fitting to recall this pastoral principle stated by the Roman Catechism:
The whole concern of doctrine and its teaching must be directed to the love that never ends. Whether something is proposed for belief, for hope or for action, the love of our Lord must always be made accessible, so that anyone can see that all the works of perfect Christian virtue spring from love and have no other objective than to arrive at love.19 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P7.HTM#)

The problem of evaluating ones maturity and understanding, much less the student's is primary. I suggest that the languages and symbols manipulated by reason are primary to the building of faith. Travel to a foreign land necessitates a learning of the culture and language that a successful mission might be accomplished. It is not always obvious that a foreign situation exists.

36-38 speaks to human reasoning having its' own natural power and light, and the problems associated with it. Then, by faith, recognize that at times the revelation of God's transcendent nature requires dropping reason for a short time. The co-worker denying himself this tool, by techniques taught by the Teacher, that he not mistake, in his vanity, reason's light as the "inexpressible," forgetting all thoughts of his bodily needs, concentrating attention on the Word, leaves the body and reason behind, accepting as much of the free gift as possible. Later, after returning, put to words the "incomprehensible." Or not. As the apparent state of ecstasy is only the outer visible evidence that the co-worker is on a heavenly mission.

[one_lost_coin]

36-38 speaks to human reasoning having its' own natural power and light, and the problems associated with it. Then, by faith, recognize that at times the revelation of God's transcendent nature requires dropping reason for a short time. The co-worker denying himself this tool, by techniques taught by the Teacher, that he not mistake in his vanity reason's light as the "inexpressible," forgetting all thoughts of his bodily needs, concentrating attention on the Word, leaves the body and reason behind, accepting as much of the free gift as possible. Later, after returning, put to words the "incomprehensible." Or not. As the apparent state of ecstasy is only the outer visible evidence that the co-worker is on a heavenly mission.

are you meaning that we must transcend matter and live as only spirit?

[minorwork]

are you meaning that we must transcend matter and live as only spirit?


That will happen soon enough. But for a little bit, seconds, or maybe an hour, by body time and, in the interest of personal understanding, soul may be drawn from the remnant and participate in the glory of salvation, then return. Paradoxically not accomplished by will.

Then faith takes second place to the sure knowledge of Spiritual Liberation in this lifetime.