Morality and Ethics without religion

[Stephen73]

As an atheist, the morals I follow are the morals promoted by the Secular Party Of Australia - honesty, freedom, compassion and justice.
:)

[phrog]

Stateside we have Superman who fights for:
Truth, Justice, and the American Way!

[SteelerMan]

Here's one...you don't f*ck with me and I won't f*ck with you. But seriously, the secular party of Australia and the Justice League (Superman) have the right idea.

[chasm]

"I'm okay, you're none of my business."

[Stumpy]

I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Anyone ever notice how many "moral and ethical" Christians there are that kill in the name of Jesus? (i. e. that nutjob Andrea Yates) How many convicted killers are quoted as saying "I was just an unethical and immoral atheist"? Just a thought...

[Logicat]

I couldn't have said any of this better myself. Anyone ever notice how many "moral and ethical" Christians there are that kill in the name of Jesus? (i. e. that nutjob Andrea Yates) How many convicted killers are quoted as saying "I was just an unethical and immoral atheist"? Just a thought...

Sometime ago I happened to look up the percentage of Atheist incarcerated people compared to the incarcerated theist populaton and there was less than 1% Atheists. I don't believe that they just get away with more, after all, if it's discovered that they're Atheist, the 'powers that be' are much tougher on them.

One explanation was that some prisoners "convert" after they are imprisoned, but that was from a theist troubled by the difference in percentages. Actually, I believe the argument has a certain amount of validity for the simple reason that if you "convert" to whatever the going religion is, for the area the prison is in, you have a much better chance at being paroled.

I do think that the conversion rate is greatest amongst theists that are moving from one religion to another. I believe that a true Atheist would not lie just for their own benefit even in most situations such as this. If they did the crime, they'll do the time and come out clean. At least I hope this is true of most Atheists. Of course, there are always exceptions...

Logicat

[minorwork]

Logicat
I believe that a true Atheist would not lie just for their own benefit even in most situations such as this. If they did the crime, they'll do the time and come out clean. At least I hope this is true of most Atheists. Of course, there are always exceptions...

The True Atheist would martyr himself for his cause? Careful. Aren't the suicide bombers understood to be doing the same?

[Logicat]

The True Atheist would martyr himself for his cause? Careful. Aren't the suicide bombers understood to be doing the same?

Ouch! Okay, I'd better look at this a little closer.... I do hope that in my lifetime I'm never given the decision to convert or die and there are many non-believers in the 'closet' to keep their place in business, family and society. So, yes, you have a valid point. Survival, in whatever form, takes precedence.

Minorwork, that's what I like about this site, it makes me think. Thank you.

Logicat

[phrog]

I know there are a lot of believers out there that are told, "This is what we now believe." (Think of the Pope proclaiming in 1954 that Catholics from that point on will accept the concept of the ascension of Mary.) But Freethinkers are just what the word applies. We can't just be told to believe some dogma or another even to save our own lives. We can say "Oh, yes, it's all so clear, I believe! I believe." and then get our asses away from the crazies.

[Logicat]

I know there are a lot of believers out there that are told, "This is what we now believe." (Think of the Pope proclaiming in 1954 that Catholics from that point on will accept the concept of the ascension of Mary.) But Freethinkers are just what the word applies. We can't just be told to believe some dogma or another even to save our own lives. We can say "Oh, yes, it's all so clear, I believe! I believe." and then get our asses away from the crazies.

Oh my, I can think of so many instances where the churches have changed or "modified" their positions and beliefs. The Catholic church only appears to have a corner on it because they've been around so long and we're still just learning what they've hidden. Some information has been "lost" forever when positions changed and old laws contradicted the new.

The Catholic Church, for centuries, not only "turned a blind eye" but seemed to encourage homosexuals and pedophiles to become priests and granted them special permissions when unmarried women would give their bastard children to the church to educate. Suddenly, with the spotlight of child abuse and pedophilia glaring at their behinds, they couldn't hide it any longer and a few parishes have gone bankrupt paying for their "sins".

A few people in Utah bring up how the leaders of the Mormon faith had a sudden revelation to allow blacks to hold the priesthood but if they'd studied their own church history (maybe not the official versions...) they'd know that Joseph Smith ordained a black when he first started the church.

The tough "anti" laws about drinking, smoking, hot drinks, etc., for another instance, were not put on the book by Smith but by Brigham Young after Smith's death. Not many Mormons seem to know that, either.

And they think they'll get us back into their "fold"??? Not bloody likely from my point of view!

[phrog]

A few people in Utah bring up how the leaders of the Mormon faith had a sudden revelation to allow blacks to hold the priesthood but if they'd studied their own church history (maybe not the official versions...) they'd know that Joseph Smith ordained a black when he first started the church.

The tough "anti" laws about drinking, smoking, hot drinks, etc., for another instance, were not put on the book by Smith but by Brigham Young after Smith's death. Not many Mormons seem to know that, either.

And they think they'll get us back into their "fold"??? Not bloody likely from my point of view!

I had not heard that about Smith. However here's a few morsels (http://www.nowscape.com/mormon/negro.htm) Smith and some of his subsequent prophets had to say about the "Negro"

[Logicat]

I had not heard that about Smith. However here's a few morsels (http://www.nowscape.com/mormon/negro.htm) Smith and some of his subsequent prophets had to say about the "Negro"

I hope this isn't too long... it's from Facts about the LDS Church, Blacks and the Preisthood that Cause Some to Struggle

1830: The Book of Mormon is published. The Book uses a dark skin motif as a sign of sinfulness by the Lamanites: "The Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon [the Lamanites]", cf. 1 Ne. 5:21.
July 1831: Joseph Smith identifies Negroes as lineage of Ham: "The first Sabbath after our arrival in Jackson county, Brother W. W. Phelps preached to a western audience...wherein were present specimens of all the families of the earth; Shem, Ham and Japheth; … quite a respectable number of negro descendants of Ham ..." (History of the Church, 1:190).
1832: Elijah Abel baptized. In early years there is dispute over his exact ethnicity. Some Report him as white, which seems impossible given later actions regarding him.
http://mormonstories.org/top10toughissues/elijahabel.jpg March 1836: Elijah Abel ordained an Elder by Joseph Smith Jr. (Eunice Kinney: “My Testimony of the Latter-day Work”). The certificate of ordination is dated 3 Mar 1836.
Dec 1836: Elijah Abel is ordained a Seventy. Ordination is performed by Zebedee Coltrin according to certificate.
1843: Apostles Heber C. Kimball, Orson Pratt and John Page restrict Elijah Abel's missionary work to his own people.
1844 or earlier: Walker Lewis, a Black member and barber in Lowell, MA ordained an Elder by William Smith (a younger brother of Joseph Smith Jr.)
1844 : Joseph Smith Jr. campaigns for the presidency of the United States on an anti-slavery platform aimed at ending slavery by 1850.
June 1844: Martyrdom of Joseph Smith Jr.
27 Apr 1845 : Orson Hyde refers to Negroes as the cursed lineage of Canaan and says that the curse of servility which they bore was for their actions in the preexistence.
Oct 1846: William “Black Pete” McCary baptized and ordained by Apostle Orson Hyde.
Fall 1847: Black "prophet," William McCary seduces a number of Mormon women into his own polygamy rites. McCary is subsequently excommunicated. Brigham Young declares Blacks ineligible for certain temple ordinances, possibly reacting to the William McCary affair. Brigham Young says, “It’s nothing to do with the blood for of one blood has God made all flesh, …we have one of the best Elders, an African [i.e., Walker Lewis] in Lowell.”
Feb 1849: Brigham Young declares, “Because Cain cut off the lives [sic] of Abel...the Lord cursed Cain's seed and prohibited them from the Priesthood."
1850: Twelve Mormon slave owners possess between 60 and 70 black slaves in Deseret Territory. There is one Apostle, Charles C. Rich, among these slave owners.
1852: “An Act in Relation to Service” gives legal recognition to black slaveholding in the Territory of Deseret (Utah).
1852: After listening to a Brigham Young speech in the Tabernacle, Wilford Woodruff records the following Brigham Young quote in his journal: "Any man having one drop of the seed of Cane in him Cannot hold the priesthood ... I will say it now in the name of Jesus Christ. I know it is true & they know it. The Negro cannot hold one particle of Government ... if any man mingles his seed with the seed of Cane the only way he Could get rid of it or have salvation would be to Come forward & have his head Cut off & spill his Blood upon the ground. It would also take the life of his Children." (Wilford Woodruff's Journal, Vol. 4, p. 97)

I think the bigger questions is, "Can there be morality WITH religion?"

[minorwork]

I think the bigger questions is, "Can there be morality WITH religion?"

Seed for thought, indeed.