What are tough questions for Christianity?

[Aspirin99]

Someone recently asked a similar question on another forum I frequent. My response was lost in a fast moving river of debate between a couple of other patrons.

So, I'll pose the question here. What do you feel are tough questions for Christianity? I think the response typically fall into two categories: Philosophical quandaries and empirical discrepancies. Here's what I wrote:

My tough question for Christians:

Why aren't you more concerned about all of the invented histories that flow through the Old and New Testament?

Example #1: Num.1:46 leads us to believe that Moses led nearly 3 million people out of Egypt. Think about that for a minute- 3 million people! Rome didn't even reach 1 million people until 133 BCE. So, Moses supposedly led 3 times the population of Rome out of Egypt.

Yet, after these 3 million people wondered in the Kadesh-barnia for 40 years, they left no evidence that they were ever there. Archaeologist find no evidence of a large encampment, no human remains, no animal remains, no pottery- nothing that would indicate a large population was in the area.

[Aspirin99]

Example #2 of invented histories that flow through the Old and New Testament:

1 Kings 6: 1 says that the Exodus took place 480 years before the construction of the Temple that started in the 4th year of Solomon's reign, so most Christians accept 1440 BCE as the date of the Exodus. This puts Joshua's conquest of Canaan starting in 1400 BCE.

In 1887, the Amarna Letters were found east of the Nile. There were over 300 cuneiform tablets. Many described Canaan in the Late Bronze Age. Most of the letters are correspondence between Canaanite rulers and Egyptian Pharaohs. It revealed that Egypt controlled Canaan before and after the time of Joshua. The kings of Canaan paid tribute to and expected help from Egypt when they were threatened.

There is no mention of an enormous Hebrew army sweeping through the land. If the story of Joshua's conquest was true, the Armana letters would be full of pleas to Egypt for help fighting this Hebrew incursion.

In short, the Amarna Letters clearly show that Egypt held control of Canaan before and after the time that Joshua supposedly conquered all the land. It further shows that Egypt kept vassal rulers in charge of the cities- none of whom where Hebrew.

The good news for Christians is that the stories of genocide are invented. The bad news is that so are the other supporting stories (like the Flood, Towers of Babel and creation).

[xDiablis]

I always ask the simple ones like where are the 10 commandments, or the ark, or essentially anything of religious importance. They were apparently all thrown out at some point.

[David]

I was raised Jewish, and every single year at Passover, we'd read the haggadah. In it, it tells how the Jews were enslaved in Egypt. That the Jews were used by Pharoh to build the pyramids, etc..

Modern archaeology has not found any evidence for Jewish slavery in Egypt (specifically, slaves who built the pyramids). Every year I point that out to my parents (who, amusingly enough don't really believe in God... But, apparently, they DO believe in the Exodus story). And, every year I get yelled at for perverting the Jews trials and tribulations...

All I want to know is this.. Is there *any* evidence that there were Jewish slaves in Egypt? Any at all! I certainly haven't seen it..

[Ximen Bao]

What's also interesting about that is that there are high-level government letters written from Canaan to Egypt from the time that the Jews had supposedly ended their Exodus and were going into genocidal conqueror mode. Oddly enough none of the letters mentioned the Jews or requested military aid from their ally-state.

Google is not my friend on this as all I find are bible sites, but if you really want to know more you could probably find something.

[formerfundie]

In no particular order....

Aren't there too many problems to list with the story of noah's ark?
What did they do with all the poop?
how did they get the animals from all the continents?
how did the animals requiring mutually exclusive habitats survive?
why is there no geological evidence of a global flood?
where is the ark?
what about asexual species? were there 2 of them?
what about all the freshwater/saltwater marine life. wouldn't it all have died?
this could go on forever....

Why is it ok to beat your slaves (much less have slaves) as long as you don't kill them?
for that matter, why doesn't god unambiguously condemn slavery? her certainly could have right? wouldn't that be something valueable to put in the bible?

Why does god care whether or not you shave the corners of your beard?
God created light before he created the sun?
Why is the age of the earth as derived from biblical geneologies so far out of touch with scientific reality?
Why doesn't god heal amputees? He cures cancer but doesn't grow arms or legs back? Why not?

Did god or ancient people with ancient minds write the bible?

e.g. Is it more probable that god hates women and gay people,or ancient men hated women and gay people?
Does eternal torture seem like a just system of punishment from a loving god?
If god is truly omnipotent and loving, why does he allow an enormous amount of suffering to take place every day?
children starving/dying of aids
children molested/raped
tsunami's/floods/ other natural disasters, etc
Why do the best documented studies indicate that prayer is about as effective as random chance?
Why don't you believe in allah? he has a following of people as large as christianity (or larger?) that justify their belief system via their perfect holy book. Why don't you believe them?
the tip of the iceberg....

[Aspirin99]

What's also interesting about that is that there are high-level government letters written from Canaan to Egypt from the time that the Jews had supposedly ended their Exodus and were going into genocidal conqueror mode. Oddly enough none of the letters mentioned the Jews or requested military aid from their ally-state.

Google is not my friend on this as all I find are bible sites, but if you really want to know more you could probably find something.

I think you mean the Amarna Letters. Right. I think these are some of the most convincing.

[Aspirin99]

In no particular order....
Aren't there too many problems to list with the story of noah's ark?
What did they do with all the poop?
how did they get the animals from all the continents?
how did the animals requiring mutually exclusive habitats survive?
why is there no geological evidence of a global flood?
where is the ark?
what about asexual species? were there 2 of them?
what about all the freshwater/saltwater marine life. wouldn't it all have died?
this could go on forever....

Why is it ok to beat your slaves (much less have slaves) as long as you don't kill them?
for that matter, why doesn't god unambiguously condemn slavery? her certainly could have right? wouldn't that be something valueable to put in the bible?

Why does god care whether or not you shave the corners of your beard?
God created light before he created the sun?
Why is the age of the earth as derived from biblical geneologies so far out of touch with scientific reality?
Why doesn't god heal amputees? He cures cancer but doesn't grow arms or legs back? Why not?

Did god or ancient people with ancient minds write the bible?

e.g. Is it more probable that god hates women and gay people,or ancient men hated women and gay people?
Does eternal torture seem like a just system of punishment from a loving god?
If god is truly omnipotent and loving, why does he allow an enormous amount of suffering to take place every day?
children starving/dying of aids
children molested/raped
tsunami's/floods/ other natural disasters, etc
Why do the best documented studies indicate that prayer is about as effective as random chance?
Why don't you believe in allah? he has a following of people as large as christianity (or larger?) that justify their belief system via their perfect holy book. Why don't you believe them?
the tip of the iceberg....


Nice list.

[stan2reason]

The toughest one for me when I was a Christian is the age-old problem with an omniscient god and free will. If God knows everything I'm going to do, is it possible for me to do otherwise?

[ionerice]

Judeo-Christians are programmed to believe by faith that everything written in any bible is true and the inerrant word of their invisible friend up in the sky. Indoctrination is a very powerful tool, especially when it is started at an early age.

In my experience in presenting tough questions to Christians, I have discovered that they have a justified answer for every contradiction, error, and lie that recorded in the bible. There are numerous Apologetic websites that specializes in the education of Christians on how to challenge the non-believer. They have gone through the bible from Genesis to Revelation and manufactured a response to every verse, in their favor.

Christians are taught that Atheist and Agnostic can’t see the truth in God’s word because they don’t have a spiritual eye and are blinded by the devil. They also accuse the non-believer of always taking the verses and meaning out of context.
Therefore what we consider to be tough questions to the Christians are seen as a piece of cake to them.

[Aspirin99]

It's like the story in the Bible of casting your seeds on stony or fertile ground. Sometimes the ground is fertile and ready for the right questions.

[David]

It's like the story in the Bible of casting your seeds on stony or fertile ground. Sometimes the ground is fertile and ready for the right questions.
You know, even One_Lost_Coin has been more mellow on his scripture in the last few posts.. Maybe there is hope for humanity after all! ;)

[OldChurchGuy]

Judeo-Christians are programmed to believe by faith that everything written in any bible is true and the inerrant word of their invisible friend up in the sky. Indoctrination is a very powerful tool, especially when it is started at an early age.

In my experience in presenting tough questions to Christians, I have discovered that they have a justified answer for every contradiction, error, and lie that recorded in the bible. There are numerous Apologetic websites that specializes in the education of Christians on how to challenge the non-believer. They have gone through the bible from Genesis to Revelation and manufactured a response to every verse, in their favor.

Christians are taught that Atheist and Agnostic can’t see the truth in God’s word because they don’t have a spiritual eye and are blinded by the devil. They also accuse the non-believer of always taking the verses and meaning out of context.
Therefore what we consider to be tough questions to the Christians are seen as a piece of cake to them.

I agree there are a noticeable number of vocal Christian literalists on the internet, radio, and TV. But, I suggest that there are far greater number of Christians who are not literalists. They tend to be quiet as their faith/belief is very personal and they feel no need to convert everyone they meet to their brand of Christianity.

Just as Atheists can be painted with a broad but erroneous brush, be careful of painting Christians the same way.

Enough preaching.

OldChurchGuy

[OldChurchGuy]

Someone recently asked a similar question on another forum I frequent. My response was lost in a fast moving river of debate between a couple of other patrons.

So, I'll pose the question here. What do you feel are tough questions for Christianity? I think the response typically fall into two categories: Philosophical quandaries and empirical discrepancies. Here's what I wrote:

My tough question for Christians:

Why aren't you more concerned about all of the invented histories that flow through the Old and New Testament?

Example #1: Num.1:46 leads us to believe that Moses led nearly 3 million people out of Egypt. Think about that for a minute- 3 million people! Rome didn't even reach 1 million people until 133 BCE. So, Moses supposedly led 3 times the population of Rome out of Egypt.

Yet, after these 3 million people wondered in the Kadesh-barnia for 40 years, they left no evidence that they were ever there. Archaeologist find no evidence of a large encampment, no human remains, no animal remains, no pottery- nothing that would indicate a large population was in the area.

That is why most mainstream denominations don't interpret the census in Numbers as being literal. It may be from a much later census or the numbers may carry a more symbolic meaning. No one knows for sure.

OldChurchGuy

[OldChurchGuy]

Example #2 of invented histories that flow through the Old and New Testament:

1 Kings 6: 1 says that the Exodus took place 480 years before the construction of the Temple that started in the 4th year of Solomon's reign, so most Christians accept 1440 BCE as the date of the Exodus. This puts Joshua's conquest of Canaan starting in 1400 BCE.

In 1887, the Amarna Letters were found east of the Nile. There were over 300 cuneiform tablets. Many described Canaan in the Late Bronze Age. Most of the letters are correspondence between Canaanite rulers and Egyptian Pharaohs. It revealed that Egypt controlled Canaan before and after the time of Joshua. The kings of Canaan paid tribute to and expected help from Egypt when they were threatened.

There is no mention of an enormous Hebrew army sweeping through the land. If the story of Joshua's conquest was true, the Armana letters would be full of pleas to Egypt for help fighting this Hebrew incursion.

In short, the Amarna Letters clearly show that Egypt held control of Canaan before and after the time that Joshua supposedly conquered all the land. It further shows that Egypt kept vassal rulers in charge of the cities- none of whom where Hebrew.

The good news for Christians is that the stories of genocide are invented. The bad news is that so are the other supporting stories (like the Flood, Towers of Babel and creation).

There is a theory that Moses led a small group out of Egypt and over time the story grew into the writings in Exodus, Numbers, Leviticus, and Joshua.

There is also a theory that the tribes of Judah migrated in a quiet fashion over a long period of time. There were occassional skirmishes and battles, but nothing like the exploits of Joshua.

For example, Kathleen Kenyon (a British archaeologist) wrote a book about 50 years ago called "Digging up Jericho". She concluded that the earlier excavations of Garstang and WF Albright were in error on their conclusions about the source and age of a strata of carbon/charcoal. Her conclusion was that Jericho was an abandoned city at the time of Joshua and that the walls had fallen down due to an earthquake. To the best of my knowledge, no one has been able to refute her conclusions.

Perhaps Joshua was a leader of some ability in some local skirmishes. I have no problem with the idea that his exploits were expanded as the role of Moses expanded and a worthy successor was needed.

On the other hand, it may all be true and the Amarna letters are incomplete. If only we could find that one missing letter!?! :)

Fearful I may have muddied rather than cleared the waters I remain,

OldChurchGuy

[Aspirin99]

In my opinion, this book does the best at summarizing past and present archaeological digs.

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
by Neil Asher Silberman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-5637706-8530012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Neil%20Asher%20Silberman) (Author), Israel Finkelstein (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-5637706-8530012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Israel%20Finkelstein) (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136/ref=sr_11_1/103-4653118-5639024?ie=UTF8&qid=1184650395&sr=11-1

It's only about $10. I highly recommend this book.

[OldChurchGuy]

In my opinion, this book does the best at summarizing past and present archaeological digs.

The Bible Unearthed: Archaeology's New Vision of Ancient Israel and the Origin of Its Sacred Texts
by Neil Asher Silberman (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-5637706-8530012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Neil%20Asher%20Silberman) (Author), Israel Finkelstein (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-url/105-5637706-8530012?%5Fencoding=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Israel%20Finkelstein) (Author)

http://www.amazon.com/Bible-Unearthed-Archaeologys-Vision-Ancient/dp/0684869136/ref=sr_11_1/103-4653118-5639024?ie=UTF8&qid=1184650395&sr=11-1

It's only about $10. I highly recommend this book.

Looks like an interesting book. I look forward to getting a copy soon. Thanks for the link.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy

[psychomonkey62]

In no particular order....
Aren't there too many problems to list with the story of noah's ark?
What did they do with all the poop?
how did they get the animals from all the continents?
how did the animals requiring mutually exclusive habitats survive?
why is there no geological evidence of a global flood?
where is the ark?
what about asexual species? were there 2 of them?
what about all the freshwater/saltwater marine life. wouldn't it all have died?
this could go on forever....

Why is it ok to beat your slaves (much less have slaves) as long as you don't kill them?
for that matter, why doesn't god unambiguously condemn slavery? her certainly could have right? wouldn't that be something valueable to put in the bible?

Why does god care whether or not you shave the corners of your beard?
God created light before he created the sun?
Why is the age of the earth as derived from biblical geneologies so far out of touch with scientific reality?
Why doesn't god heal amputees? He cures cancer but doesn't grow arms or legs back? Why not?

Did god or ancient people with ancient minds write the bible?

e.g. Is it more probable that god hates women and gay people,or ancient men hated women and gay people?
Does eternal torture seem like a just system of punishment from a loving god?
If god is truly omnipotent and loving, why does he allow an enormous amount of suffering to take place every day?
children starving/dying of aids
children molested/raped
tsunami's/floods/ other natural disasters, etc
Why do the best documented studies indicate that prayer is about as effective as random chance?
Why don't you believe in allah? he has a following of people as large as christianity (or larger?) that justify their belief system via their perfect holy book. Why don't you believe them?
the tip of the iceberg....


I took the liberty of posting those (with minor changes) on a Christian site I sometimes visit. Or, more accurately, the debate and "Questions from non-Christians" sections of a Christian forum I sometimes visit.

Watch for replies here. (http://www.christianforums.com/t5718231-i-actually-have-quite-a-few-questions.html#post36799030)

[one_lost_coin]

Here is the most difficult question I can think of "Who can save us from death?"

[stan2reason]

My kids, their kids, their kids...

Makes me wanna get outa this office and go see them! :)

[one_lost_coin]

My kids, their kids, their kids...

Makes me wanna get outa this office and go see them! :)

If what you are impling is that we live on through our children. then here are some tough honest follow up questions I have. Can you tell me the name of and about the life of your ancestor whose last name you've inherited as recently as 500 hundred years ago? How long do you think you will be remembered? And does it really matter how long, you can never find out? I think the sex pistols summed up a life without God, "there is no future and youre just dreaming" Here are some even harder words from Ecclesiates 9: 4-6 Still, anyone selected out for life has hope, for, as they say, "A living dog is better than a dead lion." The living at least know something, even if it's only that they're going to die. But the dead know nothing and get nothing. They're a minus that no one remembers. Their loves, their hates, yes, even their dreams, are long gone. There's not a trace of them left in the affairs of this earth.
A family is a precious thing and I really do hope you enjoy the day with them and cherish them as I sincerly believe you do. Seek out the truth for them give them that, there is hope in the truth, seek and you will find.
Peace,:)

[stan2reason]

Hi OLC,

Absolutely. The furthest back we've uncovered is a man by the name of William who fought with William of Orange. We've delineated our lineage all the way to the way to present day--stopping with each person to see how they contributed to our family and society as a whole. I believe it's important to learn from our ancestors.

That wasn't really my point though. I think you're approaching my statement from a reward/punishment dogma. Stated another way, I don't care if I have the "reward" of being remembered. I do care if my life has made a difference for the people I come in contact with and those I'll never meet.

It's hokey but here's how I think about these things. I think of my interactions in this world as footprints. No matter how they are perceived or ignored by those around me they affect that person. By the very act of discussing these issues you and I are leaving footprints for each other. There is actually a physical change occurring in your brain as you read my words. It may be miniscule but those changes in your brain have been made. You're likely to forget me down the line and I you but that doesn't matter to me in the least. You've changed me and I've changed you--just a touch. The sum of these moments in life go a long way to determining how we think of the cosmos and our own little corner of it. I, of course, will leave the most footprints with those I love dearly. If I were to die today my children are probably too young to have any lasting memory of me but the love I show them will be with them forever and will likely be passed on to their children and the others they meet.

This by no means, however, is restricted to family. I work in a job where I serve 11,000 low income children with severe diseases. I work behind the scenes so most will never meet me face to face--they'll never remember me. Do you think that matters to me? Not in the least because I'm not fettered by the need for some cosmic reward. I've CHANGED their lives--forever! The kindness and compassion I show them will forever leave my footprint in their lives. They'll go on as different people after our interaction and that can change their interactions with others...and so on...and so on. I believe that I have more joy in my life than most because I wake up every day and ask myself, "what am I going to do with my three-score and ten today?" No fear of punishment or promise of reward is needed for that kind of life. I don't get a do-over. I've got to make this one count.

Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met.

Best,
S2R

[OldChurchGuy]

Here is the most difficult question I can think of "Who can save us from death?"

At the risk of sounding incredibly dense, do you mean physical death? If so, no one can save me from death, to my knowledge.

Otherwise, what does the question mean?

Well meaning but slow at times I remain,

OldChurchGuy

[formerfundie]

I took the liberty of posting those (with minor changes) on a Christian site I sometimes visit. Or, more accurately, the debate and "Questions from non-Christians" sections of a Christian forum I sometimes visit.

Watch for replies here. (http://www.christianforums.com/t5718231-i-actually-have-quite-a-few-questions.html#post36799030)

I just went and read the replies so far, and all i can say is wow! I didn't see one single satisfactory answer. It's as if the questions weren't even taken seriously. I guess that's the luxury you have when you start with the assumption that you're right, and the magic man in the sky can do anything. Anyway, way to stir it up over there!!!!!

[formerfundie]

Hi OLC,

Absolutely. The furthest back we've uncovered is a man by the name of William who fought with William of Orange. We've delineated our lineage all the way to the way to present day--stopping with each person to see how they contributed to our family and society as a whole. I believe it's important to learn from our ancestors.

That wasn't really my point though. I think you're approaching my statement from a reward/punishment dogma. Stated another way, I don't care if I have the "reward" of being remembered. I do care if my life has made a difference for the people I come in contact with and those I'll never meet.

It's hokey but here's how I think about these things. I think of my interactions in this world as footprints. No matter how they are perceived or ignored by those around me they affect that person. By the very act of discussing these issues you and I are leaving footprints for each other. There is actually a physical change occurring in your brain as you read my words. It may be miniscule but those changes in your brain have been made. You're likely to forget me down the line and I you but that doesn't matter to me in the least. You've changed me and I've changed you--just a touch. The sum of these moments in life go a long way to determining how we think of the cosmos and our own little corner of it. I, of course, will leave the most footprints with those I love dearly. If I were to die today my children are probably too young to have any lasting memory of me but the love I show them will be with them forever and will likely be passed on to their children and the others they meet.

This by no means, however, is restricted to family. I work in a job where I serve 11,000 low income children with severe diseases. I work behind the scenes so most will never meet me face to face--they'll never remember me. Do you think that matters to me? Not in the least because I'm not fettered by the need for some cosmic reward. I've CHANGED their lives--forever! The kindness and compassion I show them will forever leave my footprint in their lives. They'll go on as different people after our interaction and that can change their interactions with others...and so on...and so on. I believe that I have more joy in my life than most because I wake up every day and ask myself, "what am I going to do with my three-score and ten today?" No fear of punishment or promise of reward is needed for that kind of life. I don't get a do-over. I've got to make this one count.

Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met.

Best,
S2R


Very eloquently put stan2reason. I'm quite happy with the physical changes that have occurred in my brain as a result of reading your words. :) Thanks for those insights....

[stan2reason]

Hi FF,

Very pleased with the brain-changes you've left me with as well! :)

S2R

[stan2reason]

I took the liberty of posting those (with minor changes) on a Christian site I sometimes visit. Or, more accurately, the debate and "Questions from non-Christians" sections of a Christian forum I sometimes visit.

Watch for replies here. (http://www.christianforums.com/t5718231-i-actually-have-quite-a-few-questions.html#post36799030)

This was a fascinating exercise. I agree that there was a sense that they deigned to answer such petulant questions. I was also quite surprised that several were unaware (or it seemed they were unaware) of the scriptural support for owning another human being.

[one_lost_coin]

stan2reason, well knowing your ancestery must be quit a blessing not a luxury I have (which is why it probably occured to me to use it) as my family name was altered to something more american on our arrival to this country but I suppose it matters less as I am told that all europeans at minimum and much of africa and south america can trace their ancestry to Charleman as our most recent common ancester but ancestery was not the point nor was a reward/punishment system. You are certainly right in that all lives affect all others and thankyou for the positive contribution you are making through your work for others. Christianity also affirms this and explores it to great depth in its understanding of what it calls "communion of saints". Those are very noble truths in your expression of a community that extends through time where each person affects all the others and clearly from what you reveal of yourself in your posts your life seems to always be lovingly centered on others more than your self you would make a fine Christian and your lifes work is an example that needs to be emulated by all. Yet for your statement "I've CHANGED their lives--forever!" is not supportable from a real atheism which is closer to what I wanted to get at with my previous post. Your statement is a nice sentiment but flys in the face of bertand russells adaquet summation of the only true end of a world without a creator "The whole temple of mans achievements is destined to be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins," and "no thought, no heroism can sustain an individual life beyond the grave". consequently anything you have done for your family or mine had no effect, forever, as you wish because your wishing it has no power to effect it. So noone is passing along anything that anyone can keep in a creatorless system. So I still disagree that a person can claim being saved from death is effected by their children and grandchildren or that we can save our parents from death except in a purely sentimental way. We lack the power to bring anyone back from the dead body and soul.
But I as a person who believes in a Creator completely agree with your statement and fully embrace its truth as you see it fits reality just fine. I am suggesting that those reading along who may be athiest at least bump up to agnosticism.
As for your closing questions "Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met." I'm Catholic and we have a very very deep appreciation of those who have impacted our lives by preceeding us as the lives of the Saints are a way in which we learn how God worked in their lives as a way they still teach us and as an example to follow but especially the life of Jesus Christ who we believe has impacted us all no matter if you were born before or after Him and yes I have hung all of my existance on Jesus who i have never seen but I have met as so with the Saints who I am able to pray with to God because our God is not a God of the dead but of the living. So no i dont believe my statement i didnt mean to offer them that way but I would like to ask you one maybe difficult question. Your beliefs and desire for finding the meaning of existance arent they alot closer to a Christian understanding than an athiest?

[one_lost_coin]

At the risk of sounding incredibly dense, do you mean physical death? If so, no one can save me from death, to my knowledge.

Otherwise, what does the question mean?

Well meaning but slow at times I remain,

OldChurchGuy

OldChurchGuy, There is One who can save from physical death as well. I refer you to the stories of Enoch and of Elijah who never physically died. As for the rest of us it would refer to who is the one who can restore us back to physical life and in that sense save us from death. I hope this also will help. From the Catholic Catechicm
1006 "It is in regard to death that man's condition is most shrouded in doubt."565 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AS) In a sense bodily death is natural, but for faith it is in fact "the wages of sin."566 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AT) For those who die in Christ's grace it is a participation in the death of the Lord, so that they can also share his Resurrection.567 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AU)
1007 Death is the end of earthly life. Our lives are measured by time, in the course of which we change, grow old and, as with all living beings on earth, death seems like the normal end of life. That aspect of death lends urgency to our lives: remembering our mortality helps us realize that we have only a limited time in which to bring our lives to fulfillment:
Remember also your Creator in the days of your youth, . . . before the dust returns to the earth as it was, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.568 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AV)
1008 Death is a consequence of sin. the Church's Magisterium, as authentic interpreter of the affirmations of Scripture and Tradition, teaches that death entered the world on account of man's sin.569 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AW) Even though man's nature is mortal God had destined him not to die. Death was therefore contrary to the plans of God the Creator and entered the world as a consequence of sin.570 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AX) "Bodily death, from which man would have been immune had he not sinned" is thus "the last enemy" of man left to be conquered.571 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AY)
1009 Death is transformed by Christ. Jesus, the Son of God, also himself suffered the death that is part of the human condition. Yet, despite his anguish as he faced death, he accepted it in an act of complete and free submission to his Father's will.572 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1AZ) The obedience of Jesus has transformed the curse of death into a blessing.573 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__P2I.HTM#$1B0)

[stan2reason]

stan2reason, well knowing your ancestery must be quit a blessing not a luxury I have (which is why it probably occured to me to use it) as my family name was altered to something more american on our arrival to this country but I suppose it matters less as I am told that all europeans at minimum and much of africa and south america can trace their ancestry to Charleman as our most recent common ancester but ancestery was not the point nor was a reward/punishment system. You are certainly right in that all lives affect all others and thankyou for the positive contribution you are making through your work for others. Christianity also affirms this and explores it to great depth in its understanding of what it calls "communion of saints". Those are very noble truths in your expression of a community that extends through time where each person affects all the others and clearly from what you reveal of yourself in your posts your life seems to always be lovingly centered on others more than your self you would make a fine Christian and your lifes work is an example that needs to be emulated by all. Yet for your statement "I've CHANGED their lives--forever!" is not supportable from a real atheism which is closer to what I wanted to get at with my previous post. Your statement is a nice sentiment but flys in the face of bertand russells adaquet summation of the only true end of a world without a creator "The whole temple of mans achievements is destined to be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins," and "no thought, no heroism can sustain an individual life beyond the grave". consequently anything you have done for your family or mine had no effect, forever, as you wish because your wishing it has no power to effect it. So I still disagree that a person can claim being saved from death is effected by their children and grandchildren or that we can save our parents from death except in a purely sentimental way. We lack the power to bring anyone back from the dead body and soul.
But I as a person who believes in a Creator completely agree with your statement and fully embrace its truth as you see it fits reality just fine. I am suggesting that those reading along who may be athiest at least bump up to agnosticism.
As for your closing questions "Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met." I'm Catholic and we have a very very deep appreciation of those who have impacted our lives by preceeding us as the lives of the Saints are a way in which we learn how God worked in their lives as a way they still teach us and as an example to follow but especially the life of Jesus Christ who we believe has impacted us all no matter if you were born before or after Him and yes I have hung all of my existance on Jesus who i have never seen but I have met as so with the Saints who I am able to pray with to God because our God is not a God of the dead but of the living. So no i dont believe my statement i didnt mean to offer them that way but I would like to ask you one maybe difficult question. Your beliefs and desire for finding the meaning of existance arent they alot closer to a Christian understanding than an athiest?

Thanks for your response. I'm not sure what "real atheism" you speak of. Atheism is simply the belief that there is no God. It is not a religion with tenets or a structured philosophy. One 20th century atheist was Bertrand Russel who, fortunately for me, was just a man. He was not a god or a prophet--his words are simply the search for meaning that he undertook. That said, you've picked a phrase from one of his most famous works A Free Man's Worship. In this essay he struggles with the certainty of death and the end of the universe. To suggest that he thinks our actions don't have a lasting effect or importance is missing the point by a wide margin. He goes on to say later in the same essay:

"United with his fellow-men by the strongest of all ties, the tie of a common doom, the free man finds that a new vision is with him always, shedding over every daily task the light of love. The life of Man is a long march through the night, surrounded by invisible foes, tortured by weariness and pain, towards a goal that few can hope to reach, and where none may tarry long. One by one, as they march, our comrades vanish from our sight, seized by the silent orders of omnipotent Death. Very brief is the time in which we can help them, in which their happiness or misery is decided. Be it ours to shed sunshine on their path, to lighten their sorrows by the balm of sympathy, to give them the pure joy of a never-tiring affection, to strengthen failing courage, to instil faith in hours of despair. Let us not weigh in grudging scales their merits and demerits, but let us think only of their need -- of the sorrows, the difficulties, perhaps the blindnesses, that make the misery of their lives; let us remember that they are fellow-sufferers in the same darkness, actors in the same tragedy as ourselves. And so, when their day is over, when their good and their evil have become eternal by the immortality of the past, be it ours to feel that, where they suffered, where they failed, no deed of ours was the cause; but wherever a spark of the divine fire kindled in their hearts, we were ready with encouragement, with sympathy, with brave words in which high courage glowed."

It seems that not only Atheists are guilty of cherry-picking text. ;)

As far as my views sounding Christian then so be it. The Golden Rule sounds a lot like something I heard from Confucius. It also sounds a lot like Jainism or many elements of Buddhism. The point is that to believe and act this way does not necessitate God unless you want some extra reward.

I think every atheist on this forum would admit to being an agnostic in the strictest sense of the word. We can't prove or disprove God's existence any more than we can prove the same for the Tooth-fairy. None of us chose to say we're agnostic about the Tooth-fairy thought. There simply is no evidence for her existence so we don't believe.

Wishing for a God does not make her so.

Best,
S2R

[one_lost_coin]

yes the quote is exactly why you cannot claim to be saved from death by succeeding generations as a response to my question. Russell also goes on to claim we must build our lives on "the firm foundation of unyeilding despair". That is psychologically impossible and logically contradictary. despair is not a firm foundation but a lack of one. You cant have it both ways there is either meaning in our lives that lasts eternally or there is nothing but oblivion for all. "there are two paths one that leads to life and one that leads to death." a very ancient and timeless teaching which sets it to its simplest terms, terms that are uncompromising in there truth. for all of russells talking he adds nothing more and says nothing more than he chooses death. Here is another hard question for everyone out there "which path do you choose?"

[one_lost_coin]

formerfundie, as for what they did with all the poop on the arc. I would expect they threw it overboard. Now your questions seem to suggests a lack of seriousness on your part but i am going to assume you are sincerely looking for an answer. There is an allegorical sense to the story of noahs arc that St. Peter writes of in his first letter that I quote out of the paraphrase translation of the bible known as "the message" that seems to be so popular now days. 1 Peter 3:19-22He went and proclaimed God's salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn't listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus' resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He's standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.
You will find this pattern also in the Hebrews crossing the red sea and in crossing the jordon river and also in the torah. There is a deeper meaning than animals in a boat.
I hope you find this usefull this is the Church's teaching in how to read the bible. I found it very helpfull in my own life.
From the Catholic Catechism sections
109 In Sacred Scripture, God speaks to man in a human way. To interpret Scripture correctly, the reader must be attentive to what the human authors truly wanted to affirm, and to what God wanted to reveal to us by their words.75 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$34)
110 In order to discover the sacred authors' intention, the reader must take into account the conditions of their time and culture, the literary genres in use at that time, and the modes of feeling, speaking and narrating then current. "For the fact is that truth is differently presented and expressed in the various types of historical writing, in prophetical and poetical texts, and in other forms of literary expression."76 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$35)
111 But since Sacred Scripture is inspired, there is another and no less important principle of correct interpretation, without which Scripture would remain a dead letter. "Sacred Scripture must be read and interpreted in the light of the same Spirit by whom it was written."77 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$36)
The Second Vatican Council indicates three criteria for interpreting Scripture in accordance with the Spirit who inspired it.78 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$37)
112 Be especially attentive "to the content and unity of the whole Scripture". Different as the books which compose it may be, Scripture is a unity by reason of the unity of God's plan, of which Christ Jesus is the center and heart, open since his Passover.79 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$38)
The phrase "heart of Christ" can refer to Sacred Scripture, which makes known his heart, closed before the Passion, as the Scripture was obscure. But the Scripture has been opened since the Passion; since those who from then on have understood it, consider and discern in what way the prophecies must be interpreted.80 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$39)
113 2. Read the Scripture within "the living Tradition of the whole Church". According to a saying of the Fathers, Sacred Scripture is written principally in the Church's heart rather than in documents and records, for the Church carries in her Tradition the living memorial of God's Word, and it is the Holy Spirit who gives her the spiritual interpretation of the Scripture (". . . according to the spiritual meaning which the Spirit grants to the Church"81 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3A)).
114 3. Be attentive to the analogy of faith.82 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3B) By "analogy of faith" we mean the coherence of the truths of faith among themselves and within the whole plan of Revelation.
The senses of Scripture
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and anagogical senses. the profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
116 The literal sense is the meaning conveyed by the words of Scripture and discovered by exegesis, following the rules of sound interpretation: "All other senses of Sacred Scripture are based on the literal."83 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3C)
117 The spiritual sense. Thanks to the unity of God's plan, not only the text of Scripture but also the realities and events about which it speaks can be signs.
1. the allegorical sense. We can acquire a more profound understanding of events by recognizing their significance in Christ; thus the crossing of the Red Sea is a sign or type of Christ's victory and also of Christian Baptism.84 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3D)
2. the moral sense. the events reported in Scripture ought to lead us to act justly. As St. Paul says, they were written "for our instruction".85 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3E)
3. the anagogical sense (Greek: anagoge, "leading"). We can view realities and events in terms of their eternal significance, leading us toward our true homeland: thus the Church on earth is a sign of the heavenly Jerusalem.86 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3F)
118 A medieval couplet summarizes the significance of the four senses:
The Letter speaks of deeds; Allegory to faith;
The Moral how to act; Anagogy our destiny.87 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3G)
119 "It is the task of exegetes to work, according to these rules, towards a better understanding and explanation of the meaning of Sacred Scripture in order that their research may help the Church to form a firmer judgement. For, of course, all that has been said about the manner of interpreting Scripture is ultimately subject to the judgement of the Church which exercises the divinely conferred commission and ministry of watching over and interpreting the Word of God."88 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3H)
But I would not believe in the Gospel, had not the authority of the Catholic Church already moved me.89 (http://www.vatican.va/archive/ENG0015/__PQ.HTM#$3I)

[one_lost_coin]

FormerFundie, it is my sincere hope you will find the above answer helpfull and I do believe given a chance you may find those who follow Judaism and Christianity are not ignorant fools but people with very deep and sacred beliefs.

[formerfundie]

stan2reason, well knowing your ancestery must be quit a blessing not a luxury I have (which is why it probably occured to me to use it) as my family name was altered to something more american on our arrival to this country but I suppose it matters less as I am told that all europeans at minimum and much of africa and south america can trace their ancestry to Charleman as our most recent common ancester but ancestery was not the point nor was a reward/punishment system. You are certainly right in that all lives affect all others and thankyou for the positive contribution you are making through your work for others. Christianity also affirms this and explores it to great depth in its understanding of what it calls "communion of saints". Those are very noble truths in your expression of a community that extends through time where each person affects all the others and clearly from what you reveal of yourself in your posts your life seems to always be lovingly centered on others more than your self you would make a fine Christian and your lifes work is an example that needs to be emulated by all. Yet for your statement "I've CHANGED their lives--forever!" is not supportable from a real atheism which is closer to what I wanted to get at with my previous post. Your statement is a nice sentiment but flys in the face of bertand russells adaquet summation of the only true end of a world without a creator "The whole temple of mans achievements is destined to be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins," and "no thought, no heroism can sustain an individual life beyond the grave". consequently anything you have done for your family or mine had no effect, forever, as you wish because your wishing it has no power to effect it. So noone is passing along anything that anyone can keep in a creatorless system. So I still disagree that a person can claim being saved from death is effected by their children and grandchildren or that we can save our parents from death except in a purely sentimental way. We lack the power to bring anyone back from the dead body and soul.
But I as a person who believes in a Creator completely agree with your statement and fully embrace its truth as you see it fits reality just fine. I am suggesting that those reading along who may be athiest at least bump up to agnosticism.
As for your closing questions "Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met." I'm Catholic and we have a very very deep appreciation of those who have impacted our lives by preceeding us as the lives of the Saints are a way in which we learn how God worked in their lives as a way they still teach us and as an example to follow but especially the life of Jesus Christ who we believe has impacted us all no matter if you were born before or after Him and yes I have hung all of my existance on Jesus who i have never seen but I have met as so with the Saints who I am able to pray with to God because our God is not a God of the dead but of the living. So no i dont believe my statement i didnt mean to offer them that way but I would like to ask you one maybe difficult question. Your beliefs and desire for finding the meaning of existance arent they alot closer to a Christian understanding than an athiest?

OLC, it sounds like the meat of your argument here is that Christianity provides meaning, or has a more desirable eternal outcome than Athiesm, therefore it must be true. I would reiterate to you your own words, "your wishing it has no power to effect it". Your arguments are fairly beside the point. I can claim it impossible to imagine a universe without a billion dollars in my bank account, but last time i checked, this didn't help my balance sheet. I think what everyone on this forum would like to see are real answers to the tough questions posed so far. If you want to convert athiests, give them meaningful reasons to believe. That would start with answering the myriad of objections to the source of your dogma, namely the Bible. Until that unfortunate (for you) task is done, you can't expect anybody to give you're argument via scripture quotation a second thought.

[formerfundie]

formerfundie, as for what they did with all the poop on the arc. I would expect they threw it overboard. Now your questions seem to suggests a lack of seriousness on your part but i am going to assume you are sincerely looking for an answer.

I'm quite seriously looking for an answer, and your flippant answer of 'they threw it overboard' says alot about how serious you took the question.

There is an allegorical sense to the story of noahs arc that St. Peter writes of in his first letter that I quote out of the paraphrase translation of the bible known as "the message" that seems to be so popular now days. 1 Peter 3:19-22He went and proclaimed God's salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn't listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus' resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He's standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.
You will find this pattern also in the Hebrews crossing the red sea and in crossing the jordon river and also in the torah. There is a deeper meaning than animals in a boat.
I hope you find this usefull this is the Church's teaching in how to read the bible. I found it very helpfull in my own life.

I am aware that the ark story is seen as a parallel to aspects of the salvation message. Irrelevant. I was a devout Christian that studied the Bible for many years, searching for meaning in it's covers. The fact that you can read a deeper meaning in the story doesn't automatically dismiss all the objections that have been previously raised, and are still unanswered.


From the Catholic Catechism sections
...
115 According to an ancient tradition, one can distinguish between two senses of Scripture: the literal and the spiritual, the latter being subdivided into the allegorical, moral and analogical senses. the profound concordance of the four senses guarantees all its richness to the living reading of Scripture in the Church.
...


Now if you were to answer that according to the Bible, the Ark story is just allegorical, and is not to be taken literal in any sense, I suppose that's an answer that satisfies all the objections to the practical problems of the story. (much better than 'they threw it overboard')... Many of your Christian friends would probably take issue with that answer though... At any rate, that would get us through exactly 1 objection. Ready to tackle more?

[psychomonkey62]

Hi OLC,

Absolutely. The furthest back we've uncovered is a man by the name of William who fought with William of Orange. We've delineated our lineage all the way to the way to present day--stopping with each person to see how they contributed to our family and society as a whole. I believe it's important to learn from our ancestors.

That wasn't really my point though. I think you're approaching my statement from a reward/punishment dogma. Stated another way, I don't care if I have the "reward" of being remembered. I do care if my life has made a difference for the people I come in contact with and those I'll never meet.

It's hokey but here's how I think about these things. I think of my interactions in this world as footprints. No matter how they are perceived or ignored by those around me they affect that person. By the very act of discussing these issues you and I are leaving footprints for each other. There is actually a physical change occurring in your brain as you read my words. It may be miniscule but those changes in your brain have been made. You're likely to forget me down the line and I you but that doesn't matter to me in the least. You've changed me and I've changed you--just a touch. The sum of these moments in life go a long way to determining how we think of the cosmos and our own little corner of it. I, of course, will leave the most footprints with those I love dearly. If I were to die today my children are probably too young to have any lasting memory of me but the love I show them will be with them forever and will likely be passed on to their children and the others they meet.

This by no means, however, is restricted to family. I work in a job where I serve 11,000 low income children with severe diseases. I work behind the scenes so most will never meet me face to face--they'll never remember me. Do you think that matters to me? Not in the least because I'm not fettered by the need for some cosmic reward. I've CHANGED their lives--forever! The kindness and compassion I show them will forever leave my footprint in their lives. They'll go on as different people after our interaction and that can change their interactions with others...and so on...and so on. I believe that I have more joy in my life than most because I wake up every day and ask myself, "what am I going to do with my three-score and ten today?" No fear of punishment or promise of reward is needed for that kind of life. I don't get a do-over. I've got to make this one count.

Do you really believe your own statement? Aren't you dramatically affected by the lives of people who lived thousands of years ago? You've hung much of your existence on the words of men you've never met.

Best,
S2R

Wow. That should really be published or SOMETHING. Thank you for that read! :)

I just went and read the replies so far, and all i can say is wow! I didn't see one single satisfactory answer. It's as if the questions weren't even taken seriously. I guess that's the luxury you have when you start with the assumption that you're right, and the magic man in the sky can do anything. Anyway, way to stir it up over there!!!!!
This was a fascinating exercise. I agree that there was a sense that they deigned to answer such petulant questions. I was also quite surprised that several were unaware (or it seemed they were unaware) of the scriptural support for owning another human being.

Yeah, and now it's locked. Shame that it was locked RIGHT after I made that post about the other flood story. I put a lot of work into that! :(
I tried to stay calm throughout that thread, but stories about stoning women who get raped because they didn't yell loud enough...........:mad:

I also don't take like it much when I am called a fool, and the insulter doesn't even admit he insulted me. The person said "I'm not calling you a fool, this book is!" Okay, then can I write "You are an idiot" on a piece of paper, then say "I'm not calling you an idiot, but..........*taps the paper* "This is......"

[OldChurchGuy]

Wow. That should really be published or SOMETHING. Thank you for that read! :)




Yeah, and now it's locked. Shame that it was locked RIGHT after I made that post about the other flood story. I put a lot of work into that! :(
I tried to stay calm throughout that thread, but stories about stoning women who get raped because they didn't yell loud enough...........:mad:

I also don't take like it much when I am called a fool, and the insulter doesn't even admit he insulted me. The person said "I'm not calling you a fool, this book is!" Okay, then can I write "You are an idiot" on a piece of paper, then say "I'm not calling you an idiot, but..........*taps the paper* "This is......"

I get the impression the thread may be moved over to an area called General Apologetics (at least I think that is what "GA" means).

I was getting ready to throw in my 2 cents worth just to see how the other believers would react. For example, you are right that there are older stories than Noah and the Ark and there is a striking resemblance among them. The "Epic of Gilgamesh" comes to mind along with the ones you mentioned.

There is a theory that the various stories in the first part of Genesis (up to the story of Abraham) were meant to put a "Hebrew spin" on the world view of the time. In other words, other cultures had a flood story so the Hebrews were going to have one also but theirs would give the credit to their God rather than the god(s) of the other cultures. To me it makes sense but I suspect some of my fellow theists would be aghast to think such a possibility could exist.

Let me know, please, if the post becomes active.

Also, I am sorry some of these theists lost their manners. Many times people find it easier to react negatively rather than concede a point or ponder alternative ideas. This is because their faith/belief becomes blurred with irrefutable fact. It is a shame because much interesting dialogue goes right down the drain.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

[stan2reason]

yes the quote is exactly why you cannot claim to be saved from death by succeeding generations as a response to my question. Russell also goes on to claim we must build our lives on "the firm foundation of unyeilding despair". That is psychologically impossible and logically contradictary. despair is not a firm foundation but a lack of one. You cant have it both ways there is either meaning in our lives that lasts eternally or there is nothing but oblivion for all. "there are two paths one that leads to life and one that leads to death." a very ancient and timeless teaching which sets it to its simplest terms, terms that are uncompromising in there truth. for all of russells talking he adds nothing more and says nothing more than he chooses death. Here is another hard question for everyone out there "which path do you choose?"

Hi OLC,

Sorry to take some time getting back. Just got back from a weekend camping trip with my family! :) Totally awesome!

I couldn't disagree more with your statements here. To suggest that "despair is not a firm foundation but a lack of one," is as arbitrary as it is wrong. History is filled with stories that contradict your statement. In fact, when all is lost, when death is certain, when there is great despair, that's when we see some of the very best of ourselves.

Try telling the millions of people who despaired every day in the Nazi camps. Tell that to my grandfather, a prisoner-of-war, who sat beside the Jews of Buchenwald. When the Nazi's feared the camp would be overtaken by the allies they set out to kill the remaining Jews. Men and women like my Grandfather could have waited to be rescued but when they heard of the German's plans they instead took up arms for their camp-mates.
Not bad for an atheist Belgian in the midst of hell.

Try telling that to those that risk all to save the victims of Rwandan genocide.

Try telling that to the heretics that stood against the putrid actions of the Holy Inquisition.

Our world is better each time a group of people bound by despair stand firm against it.

Bertrand Russel is making my point, not yours. That we are finite binds us together and makes us stronger, better. History has shown this to be true over and over again. He only makes your point if you're looking for some reward that is greater than this life...which is I believe the whole point of religious thought.

I can't sum this up better than formerfundie did but I can say it a different way. When faced with the words of Russel, believers dismiss them because they do not like the way it makes them feel--no warm and fuzzy feeling must mean it is false. Then believers see the words that they like very much, "Believe in Me and you will live forever" Ahh--there is truth! How do I know? I'm warm and fuzzy. In effect you're telling me I'm wrong because what I believe doesn't make YOU feel happy.

What bothers me most about this is that some believers (I don't put you in this category) belittle or diminish the lives of non-believers simply because we refuse to accept the existence of your God. In fact, I feel the kind actions of atheists are less selfish. The non-believer doesn't act in kindness because she believes that she'll walk on streets of gold for eternity. She isn't good to her neighbor because eternal hellfire awaits her if she's not. Were the actions of my grandfather nothing because someday the universe will cease to exist. Not in my book. His actions will live on.

Yet again we leave each other with new footprints.

Peace,
S2R

[one_lost_coin]

stan2reason, you write "To suggest that "despair is not a firm foundation but a lack of one," is as arbitrary as it is wrong. From the dictionary: despair- 1. loss of hope 2. someone or something causing this 3. to be without hope. Again you cannot build on despair. Neither can you use a strong faith community such as the Jews who believe in God to support your wishes that there isnt one. The Jews believed in God they had hope. As did the Rwandans have hope in being saved and many in a God who will love them in eternity were there will be no more suffering for them. Even the heretics had something they considered a God to hope in. So I turn it to you, you tell them the truth of your belief that they will face the same fate as everyone good or bad and that there is no justice for the crimes against them. That all of creation came about by random chance and that the atheist grave treats everyone to the same oblivion where there is no justice. You do not get to use people of hope to defend a position built on the absence of it. Here are some words from the Jewish community written in adversity.
From the Psalms 118 5-16 Pushed to the wall, I called to God;
from the wide open spaces, he answered.
God's now at my side and I'm not afraid;
who would dare lay a hand on me?
God's my strong champion;
I flick off my enemies like flies.
Far better to take refuge in God
than trust in people;
Far better to take refuge in God
than trust in celebrities.
Hemmed in by barbarians,
in God's name I rubbed their faces in the dirt;
Hemmed in and with no way out,
in God's name I rubbed their faces in the dirt;
Like swarming bees, like wild prairie fire, they hemmed me in;
in God's name I rubbed their faces in the dirt.
I was right on the cliff-edge, ready to fall,
when God grabbed and held me.
God's my strength, he's also my song,
and now he's my salvation.
Hear the shouts, hear the triumph songs
in the camp of the saved?
"The hand of God has turned the tide!
The hand of God is raised in victory!
The hand of God has turned the tide!"

They believe in God try telling King David and Solomon and Moses and Abraham and those who keep the Jewish faith there is no God. No you will find the people in adversity hope in God and call upon His justice. The question is who will an atheist call out to to save him? himself? He already knows his ultimate fate so that wouldnt seem logical. I guess he just has to accept it death ends everything.

Consider pascals wager

You live as though God exists.
If God exists, you go to heaven (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven): your gain is infinite.
If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.


You live as though God does not exist.
If God exists, you go to hell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell): your loss is infinite.
If God does not exist, you gain nothing & lose nothing.
For someone who claims to believe there isnt a God you certainly reason like someone who does believe in God. you instinctivly know there is hope, you should follow it. Again the question "Who can save us from death?" The Jewish people have an answer I listened to them you should listen too.

[one_lost_coin]

formerfundie wrote: I'm quite seriously looking for an answer, and your flippant answer of 'they threw it overboard' says alot about how serious you took the question.

Then you will be happy to know my answer is quit legitimate. I served in the Navy on a submarine and what we did with the poop is pump it overboard. Its not complicated.

[psychomonkey62]

I get the impression the thread may be moved over to an area called General Apologetics (at least I think that is what "GA" means).

I was getting ready to throw in my 2 cents worth just to see how the other believers would react. For example, you are right that there are older stories than Noah and the Ark and there is a striking resemblance among them. The "Epic of Gilgamesh" comes to mind along with the ones you mentioned.

There is a theory that the various stories in the first part of Genesis (up to the story of Abraham) were meant to put a "Hebrew spin" on the world view of the time. In other words, other cultures had a flood story so the Hebrews were going to have one also but theirs would give the credit to their God rather than the god(s) of the other cultures. To me it makes sense but I suspect some of my fellow theists would be aghast to think such a possibility could exist.

Let me know, please, if the post becomes active.

Also, I am sorry some of these theists lost their manners. Many times people find it easier to react negatively rather than concede a point or ponder alternative ideas. This is because their faith/belief becomes blurred with irrefutable fact. It is a shame because much interesting dialogue goes right down the drain.

As always,

OldChurchGuy

Yeah, I don't think that Christian fundies would much like the idea of the story of Noah's Ark basically being stolen from another culture.

[one_lost_coin]

stan2reason, additionally concerning telling those who are in despair it would be an honor to share the life giving hope of Jesus Christ with someone as His message changes lives.
Here is the story of St. Max Kolbe who was martyred in a concentration camp. When World War II started, the printing apostolate that Father Kolbe had started was a target of hatred from the Germans. Father Kolbe was arrested by the Gestapo and released in December, 1939. In February of 1941, he was arrested again and imprisoned in Warsaw. While in Warsaw he suffered from an inflammation of the lungs and was confined to the infirmary. On May 28, 1941, Father Kolbe, in a group of 320 prisoners, was transferred to the concentration camp at Auschwitz.
During his time there, he would share his meager rations of food with those around him who were hungry. He would secretly hear confessions and hold Mass for others in the camp. His work, even under these terrible conditions, continued. He would comfort the prisoners, saying, "Hate is not creative. Our sorrow is necessary that those who live after us may be happy."
Father Kolbe would plead with the prisoners to forgive their persecutors and overcome evil with good.
A Protestant Doctor who treated the patients in Father Kolbe's block, Block Twelve, said that Father Kolbe would not let himself be treated before any other prisoners in that block. Father Kolbe sacrificed himself for the prisoners.
"From my observations, the virtues in the Servant of God were no memoentary impulse such as are often found in men, they sprang from a habitual practice, deeply woven into his personality," the doctor said.
Father Kolbe had gotten better, well enough to be transferred to Block 14. One day, a man in Father Kolbe's block had escaped. All of the men from that block were brought out into the hot sun and made to stand all day with no food or drink. At the end of the day, the man that had escaped had not yet been found.
Commandant Fritsch, the guard who was in charge of this group, told the men that ten would die in place of the the one that had escaped. The guard called out the names. One man, Polish Sergeant Francis Gajowniczek, begged to be spared because, worried about his family on the outside who would not survive without him when he finally got out.
Father Kolbe silently stepped forward and stood before Commandant Fritsch.
The commandant asked, "What does this Polish pig want?"
Father Kolbe pointed to the polish sergeant, saying, "I am a Catholic priest from Poland; I would like to take his place, because he has a wife and children."
The commandant stood silent for a moment, then allowed the sergeant to take his place among the other men while Father Kolbe took his place. He was then sent to the starvation chamber. The secretary and interpreter for this bunker was so impressed by Father Kolbe's heroic actions that he kept an exact record of his last days, more detailed than the job required.
Each day the guards would remove the bodies of those who had died. The sounds of screaming and crying were not heard from the starvation bunker. Instead, the sounds of Father Kolbe leading the Rosary and singing hymns to the Immaculata with the other prisoners in the bunker could be heard. While the guards were away, the secretary would go into the bunker to speak with and console the prisoners. When Father Kolbe could no longer speak from his hunger and lack of energy, he would whisper his prayers.
After two weeks, the cell had to be cleared out for more prisoners. Only four prisoners were left, Father Kolbe was one of them. They injected a lethal dose of cabolic acid into each prisoner. Father Kolbe, the last prisoner left to be killed, raised his arm to the guard. On August 14, 1941, the eve of the feast of the Assumption of Our Lady into Heaven, Father Kolbe was martyred. The next day, his body was cremated.

[one_lost_coin]

stan2reason, Incarcerated in Nazi death camps during the Second World War, psychologist Viktor Frankl observed that those who found meaning in life were the most likely to survive. Later, he evolved this insight into a new psychotherapy—logotherapy. He also said “Man needs to struggle for a goal worthy of him, and find meaning waiting to be fulfilled.”

I sure am glad russell wasnt in one of those camps with his message. The message of despair.

[one_lost_coin]

Yeah, I don't think that Christian fundies would much like the idea of the story of Noah's Ark basically being stolen from another culture.

Actually you will find it taught in most all seminaries. It existance is very much appreciated by Christians. I could recommend a very good college book that is available at barnes and nobles "Understanding the Old Testament" by Bernard Anderson. It does a very good job at bringing the modern reader out of modern cultural biases, that is reading yourself into the story, and giving you an understanding of the culture and perspectives of those who wrote the bible or any ancient writting for that matter, thus letting the meaning and intensions of the ancient writers be better heard. They lived very diffrent from us and had their own and in many was deeper understandings and perspectives on creation and existance.

[stan2reason]

Hi OLC,

I'll keep my response brief and I'll not pose any further questions to you. For the sake of this poor dead horse, perhaps we should stop beating it. Rather I'd like to summarize my philosophy and you're welcome to have the last word on this.

OLC: Here is the most difficult question I can think of "Who can save us from death?"

S2R: My kids, their kids, their kids...makes me wanna get outa this office and go see them! :)

My presence on this globe matters because of how I change it every day. Whether it's helping a sick child or waving on a fellow motorist the action leaves an impression on them. The impression is tiny but over a lifetime these impressions are a major force in shaping a life and thereby their own interactions. I could leave negative impressions (and probably have more times than I care to recount) but I spend my life trying to leave "footprints" that will help and aid people in their struggle. These footprints change the world for all generations to come even if only just a bit. OLC brought up Russell as an argument against this philosophy being valid. Russell's essay described a humanity united by a common fate. This fate throughout history has bound people together and humans in the face of despair often reveal their greatest character. This is true for believers and non-believers. My grandfather stands as merely one example of a person who believed with all his heart that his actions would be the end of him yet he acted anyway. This diminutive atheist with one decision made a difference that will resonate through the ages. He didn't need God or a belief in eternal reward. In fact, for many at the time, the belief in God and the rightness of their own "true" religion kept them from acting on behalf of their fellow-man. I believe that the Pope Pius XII's actions (or lack thereof) throughout this horrible era have been questioned. There has been great goodness on both sides of the belief spectrum--to suggest otherwise by assuming that non-believers like Russell are incapable of such action is sadly arrogant. Still, Russell was just a man with MANY flaws--OLC, it seems would like to make him much more than that to atheists. We non-believers tend not to deify human beings.

There is no Christian (or Islamic or Jewish, or Buddhist, or Hindu...) monopoly on fulfillment. I lead a fulfilled life. Millions of atheists lead a fulfilled life where the wellbeing of the planet gives them purpose. This, for us, is enough. For believers, it seems that there must be more. So much so that they can not accept that my life is fulfilled. Believers long for a cosmic reward/punishment system where their belief and good works will lead to reward and the non-believers will be exterminated--slowly and painfully. They long for a place beyond this earth where their life will continue for eternity, a spiritual members-only club if you will. I don't--every day that I wake up is a good day because I've focused my attention on making the world a better place for my children and the children of my neighbor. As I said before, I don't get a do-over. This is it and I'd better make the best of it.

The basis for Theist thought, it seems to me, is that belief feels good. I get it. It's nice to think that there is an eternal life beyond this life where there will be no non-believers and other riffraff. It's nice to think that in the face of despair that there is a great Being in the sky who might save you or who will mete out a fiery justice. It's really nice to think that if the universe ends some day that someone out there will move us to a new heavenly place. Wishing for it simply doesn't make it so. Pascal's pragmatic argument doesn't make it so--or if it does then it's a god that can be fooled by my fake belief (perhaps a good topic for another thread). The good feeling that comes from this philosophy lends it no credence. Believe it if you will--it's your choice. I can respect your right to do so. Good luck finding the end of the rainbow.

In the mean time I'll focus on this great genetic gift I've been given--I exist. I'm going to try to do a bang-up job of existing.

I lied about this being short. :)

Best to you in your quest OLC. I'm sure we'll chat on many topics down the line. It's been a pleasure.

S2R

[formerfundie]

formerfundie wrote: I'm quite seriously looking for an answer, and your flippant answer of 'they threw it overboard' says alot about how serious you took the question.

Then you will be happy to know my answer is quit legitimate. I served in the Navy on a submarine and what we did with the poop is pump it overboard. Its not complicated.

I wasn't aware noah's ark was as complicated as a naval submarine. Mechanical pumps and everything. very impressive.

BTW, here's a very good treatment of *some* of the problems with the story of noah's ark.
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/noah-story.htm

[one_lost_coin]

it only requires a shovel. do an internet search you might see a picture of one :-)

[formerfundie]

it only requires a shovel. do an internet search you might see a picture of one :-)

Very enlightening response. Thank you.

[Kumbafu]

what about all the freshwater/saltwater marine life. wouldn't it all have died?

Sealife wouldn't have needed passage on the ship. But some damn large aquatic enclosures would have been needed for the freshwater species.

One question I like; Why only 2 of every animal? How were the carnivores fed?

This talk about Noah reminds me of a fun theory I have [although it would be best argued by the "believers"] but it's fun nonetheless.

We're told that we only use a portion of our total brainpower. Inbreeding tends to weaken genes and creates less than intelligent offspring.

The story goes that we all are descendants of Adam & Eve. They and their offspring had to interbreed in order to populate the world.

Time goes by and god decides to destroy all non-believers. Noah and his family are the ones who listen to god. They build a boat and save themselves. Whoops… one problem… they need to repopulate the world. Looks like we have a second instance of inbreeding.

And that is why we only use part of our brainpower… it’s genetic. LOL!

[one_lost_coin]

Kumbafo wrote
Time goes by and god decides to destroy all non-believers. Noah and his family are the ones who listen to god. They build a boat and save themselves.

Yes it is an interesting pattern there are a number of other places in the bible where it appears. The key place to observe it is Jesus on the cross. The story of the arc as also, the crossing of the red sea, and the crossing of the jordan into cannaan are ways to understand what happens to us in baptism. In baptism we are joined to the life death and ressurection of Jesus. In Him our sinfull self is drowned on the Cross and we are born into a new life with Him through His ressurection. Jesus is the arc and he is restoring all of creation, Us and the animals, back to the garden. An amazing thing has been done by His love that conquers all. Come aboard all are welcome. Pass through the waters of baptism into new life.

[reluctantagnostic]

it only requires a shovel. do an internet search you might see a picture of one :-)

8 people shoveling. Most conservative Christian estimate of 200,000 animals. Pooping 2-3 times a day. 1/2 million poops to scoop. 24 hours in a day. 20,833 scoops per hour. 2604 scoops per hour per person. 43 scoops per minute. Nonstop. shovel shovel shovel.

And during the early part of the journey it was raining so hard (in order to cover all the earth in such a short time) it would have been interesting to see them shoveling in gale force winds and torrential downpours as has never been experienced before or after.

In reality, there were millions of species of animals at that time. They 8 of them had to sleep. They had to also feed and tend the animals which left them lest time to handle poop.

Come on. Think man. Answering even the most basic Noah's ark difficulty with 'do a google search for shovel' shows that you are not taking seriously that the story has dozens and dozens of impossibilities embedded in it.

Think about the workload of these 8 folks. I was raised on a dairy and I can tell you I spent a lot of time with just 50 or 60 cattle cleaning out the poop. Not to mention milking, feeding, etc.

BTW, that was only one of the points that formerfundie raised.

[reluctantagnostic]

what about all the freshwater/saltwater marine life. wouldn't it all have died?

Sealife wouldn't have needed passage on the ship. But some damn large aquatic enclosures would have been needed for the freshwater species.



Actually the point is that with all the freshwater from the springs & rain it would have diluted the ocean water to the point that saltwater marine life could not have survived. Also it would seem to destroy all freshwater life as well. The biblical story leaves aquatic life outside the ark since there was no marine biologist to check the facts of the story when it was written.

[Kumbafu]

Actually the point is that with all the freshwater from the springs & rain it would have diluted the ocean water to the point that saltwater marine life could not have survived. Also it would seem to destroy all freshwater life as well. The biblical story leaves aquatic life outside the ark since there was no marine biologist to check the facts of the story when it was written.

Good point, although brackish-water species would have had a good chance of survival.

Then there's the bull shark. Their distribution includes the Atlantic and Gulf, but have been found as far north as Iliinois in the Mississippi river.

BTW... was there any mention in the bible about plant life vs the flood?

[one_lost_coin]

reluctantagnostic wrote: Come on. Think man. Answering even the most basic Noah's ark difficulty with 'do a google search for shovel' shows that you are not taking seriously that the story has dozens and dozens of impossibilities embedded in it.

It has one definite message embedded in it. 1 Peter 19-22He went and proclaimed God's salvation to earlier generations who ended up in the prison of judgment because they wouldn't listen. You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water. The waters of baptism do that for you, not by washing away dirt from your skin but by presenting you through Jesus' resurrection before God with a clear conscience. Jesus has the last word on everything and everyone, from angels to armies. He's standing right alongside God, and what he says goes.
Those flood waters were like baptism that now saves you. Believe and be Baptised.

[psychomonkey62]

BTW... was there any mention in the bible about plant life vs the flood?

Great point.

I guess the herbivores would have nothing to eat after the flood stopped. Sucks for them. :rolleyes:

[formerfundie]

Proposition A
...the story has dozens and dozens of impossibilities embedded in it.

Proposition B
...It has one definite message embedded in it.
{insert preaching here}



Pure logic dictates that the credibility of B is nullified by A.
A necessary condition for believing B, is belief that A is false.
Elementary reasoning and common-sense clearly show that A is true.

Therefore
B is irrelevant.

- FSM blesses you

[Kumbafu]

You know, even though God waited patiently all the days that Noah built his ship, only a few were saved then, eight to be exact—saved from the water by the water.

How long did it take to build?

How many people helped?

How big was it?

[psychomonkey62]

Kumbafo wrote
The story of the arc as also, the crossing of the reed sea, and the crossing of the jordan into cannaan are ways to understand what happens to us in baptism.

Fixed. :)
...